Silent Meditation Retreats: A Journey of Self-Discovery & Inner Peace | Shaila Catherine

Shaila Catherine interview: Silent Meditation Retreats - a journey of self-discovery and inner peace

Sol Hanna

0:01

Welcome to Tricia mountain, the podcast that inspires and guides us to find the treasure within human experience. I'm your host. So, Hannah. Have you learned the basics of meditation and want to take things deeper? Have you heard about silent meditation retreats and wondered what they like? If so, you've arrived at the right place. As in this episode, we're going to discuss why we should go on meditation retreats with a focus on the commonly available 9 or 10 day retreat format. Also, we'll discuss what we might expect when going on meditation retreats and some of the obstacles we might encounter and how to overcome them. And also, how do we integrate all of this into a deeper practice, leading us to deeper tranquility and insights to guide us into a better understanding of silent meditation retreats? Is our guest. Shayla Catherine Shayla Catherine is the founder of Bodhi Courses, an online dharma classroom at Insight Meditation, South Bay center for mindfulness, compassion and Wisdom in Silicon Valley, California. She has taught Insight meditation since 1990 six inches the USA, Europe, Israel, New Zealand and Canada. Shayla draws inspiration from the discourses of the Buddha and maintains an unwavering dedication to awakening. She is known for her expertise in guiding practitioners to cultivate concentration and the deep absorption states of jhana, and for enthusiasm for Sue to study. Shayla is a Buddhist author of three books on meditation. Her first book, focused in Fearless and Meditators Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm and Clarity, introduces concentration practices and the absorption states of jhana. From 2006 to 2014, Shayla trained in Somali and for persona under the direction of Venerable Pal Cedaw in Myanmar. She went on to author Wisdom Wide and Deep A Practical Handbook for Mastering China, and her Persona to help make his traditional approach to meditative training accessible to Western practitioners. And a third book is Beyond Distraction Five Practical Ways to Focus the Mind, which shares practical Buddhist strategies for overcoming restlessness and distraction. Sarah has been going on and teaching meditation retreats for several decades, and feel very fortunate that she has offered her time and experience to help us understand the whys and hows of meditation retreats. On this episode of Treasure Mountain. So join us as we seek for the treasure within.

Sol Hanna

2:46

Welcome to Treasure Mountain. Shayla, how are you today?

Shaila Catherine

2:49

I'm well. And thank you for inviting me.

Sol Hanna

2:52

And thanks for coming along. Look, let's get stuck straight into it, because in my experience, there may be quite a few of our listeners who have done meditation, but they haven't done a meditation retreat. Or maybe they've done just a weekend retreat, but they're thinking about doing a 9 or 10 day retreat. Could you explain what are some of the benefits of going on a meditation retreat like this?

Shaila Catherine

3:18

Well, I first would say if the thought occurs to somebody to attend a meditation retreat, I would encourage them to definitely attend it. That thought has arisen. It is a rare thought. Most of the time we just go through our patterns, our ordinary activities of the day, and every once in a while there is an amazing thought that opens up in our minds of something that we may not even know, what that path may hold for us, what it might show us. And I say, if that thought arises, that is a blessing and one should act on it. So if somebody already has some exposure to meditation, then certainly they should. There's no reason not to go on retreat for most people. There are, of course, a few people who it's just not the right time, you know, maybe they have very young children and it's just not the time to leave them, or they have some worldly responsibilities that they need to attend to. But there's always going to be something of worldly responsibilities. We have to learn to make space in our lives for something deeper, something more profound than our ordinary activities. If we care about our spiritual lives, we have to give at the time. Mm

Sol Hanna

4:40

hmm. Would you say, though, that you would would you say that after the end of a retreat to people feel differently? Or is there something that they've gains or lost perhaps, which what's what's the drive, do you think that would encourage people to make that decision that's worthwhile to go on a retreat? You know, what brings somebody into the retreat is so varied. Some people go out of curiosity, some people go on a dare. Some people go because it sounds like an exotic, weird idea. Some people go because a friend suggested it and they feel like, well, the friend suggested it, so I should try it. Some people go because their their doctor prescribed it because they were stressed or they were having some, you know, heart condition or panic attacks. And the doctor said, you gotta learn to chill if you gotta learn to meditate. And there's no better way to learn how to tape, then you really immerse oneself in the in the experience of meditation. I do think it's good to do things, to meditate at home, and to take classes so that we can learn some of the basics. Get introduced to meditation, especially mindfulness. Meditation is the kind of meditation that I encourage for beginners. Just just learned to be mindful and to sit in silence. Being mindful of the body, mindful of feelings, mindful of what's happening in the mind. But in a day we just might sit for what, a half an hour? An hour, and once or twice a day we don't build a momentum so that we rarely will, will get anything more than a little bit of calm or a little bit of of a slightly different perspective on our lives. When we go on retreat, we have to step out of our normal patterns and all of the routines and interactions and habits that keep reinforcing the exact same worldview and expectation about ourselves. We have to step outside of that to have a a wiser perspective. So if we want to understand how we're meeting our lives, we have to look at that from another perspective. And simply going on a retreat gives us a very different perspective on things. It clears the space so that we can sit and calm the mind, let go of distractions, and begin to see how this mind works, how we're perceiving things, what how our views are affecting our perceptions, what's happening in the moment of experiencing life. And that's very hard to do without the support of the continuity of mindfulness that builds over the course of some days in a retreat. It's not that it's impossible to happen in a in a daily practice alone, but. Really what what's what's more optimal is to have retreats where we we we step out of all of our daily routines and we go and dedicate time. We dedicate those days, those weeks to to developing the mind and really cultivating our spiritual life and clarifying our perceptions, deepening our concentration, developing understanding and wisdom. And then we return and and come back to our daily lives. And during our daily lives we continue to meditate. But just that, once or twice a day is what most people do and then go back on another retreat, you know, sometime later in the year. 14s I did want to ask, how does one prepare for going on to a meditation retreat? And I know for myself that, you know, 30 years ago, when did my first mine day retreat? I prepared by being incredibly busy and then going and playing a gig with my band on the night before. So that was like the worst possible preparation. Took a long time to really get into the flow of the meditation retreat. What would you recommend for someone who hasn't done it before? What's a good way to get get ready to go for a retreat?

Shaila Catherine

9:22

Well, I think we can learn what not to do, and that's a good example. Of course, there are some times when we don't we can't really control what's happening in the lead up to a retreat. And there are times when we come out and we don't know what we're going to meet, and we could just come out to chaos. But we certainly can plan that. When we schedule a retreat. We can also try to schedule the time before it so that we create a period of time where we are preparing ourselves for the retreat. And then after the retreat, we're creating a bridge back to our daily lives. Now that's ideal if we can if we can do that, and I'll say a little bit more about the specific things we can prepare or set up. But we should know that that though there's an ideal life, isn't going to always give us ideal conditions and we just have to meet the moment. However, it is good, but what tends to happen is when the when the transition is extremely abrupt, what we tend to do is we just tend to block out one thing and then just focus on the next. We tend to kind of really compartmentalize and and grab a hold of something. And often what the mind grabs a hold of are the very things that would actually be better to let go of. Yeah. Good point. For example, we tend to grab a hold of things that create a sense of identity. And it really would be a lot better for most of our, our, our joy to, to for accessing joy and ease and letting go and, and de-stressing is to let go of some of the things that keep reinforcing who we are, how we are, what we think of ourselves in the world, to actually let some of that go. The kinds of things that I think really help somebody prepare for a retreat is, first of all, prepare physically by getting a getting some sleep in the days before. If you come into a retreat really exhausted, then you're very likely going to sleep away the first few days and have a lot of sloth and torpor in the meditation. So if you have the opportunity to actually get a good night's sleep for the 3 or 4 days before the retreat, a try for that, try for that, it makes a huge difference. If you have the opportunity to reduce the kinds of of entertainments and even even the worldly contacts, like reading news and listening to news, that that keeps stimulating a lot of agitating thoughts. Then for the week before, or even the two weeks before, you might want to do less of those sorts of things and the entertainments like it's not the time to try to start a new novel and only get halfway through, and then your mind is thinking about it and what what's going to happen next when you're in the retreat? It's also not the time to watch some really a horror film or something like that right before a retreat, because sometimes it doesn't. It may not seem important because we know it's fiction, but nevertheless, you're not going to want to be meditating. They're having visions of some zombie apocalypse or something because you saw some crazy horror movie. So those whatever we put in. Tends to bubble up when we're in silence. And so take care of what you consume with your mind in the in the weeks before a retreat. It doesn't mean you can't read the newspaper, but I think people know when they're they're entering into a something that's going to agitate their mind. And, and sometimes we just do it habitually. And this is a good excuse to opt for a quieter evening or a something very simple to add to end the days before we go to bed or after work, in the weeks before a retreat. It's a really it's a really nice way of protecting the mind. It also helps to meditate more. If you're sitting only once a day at home, and then you come into a retreat and suddenly you're sitting 6 to 10 times a day, well, whoa, that's going to seem intense and the body might even not like it. It might get really sore. So, you know, just set a cup if you can sit a little bit more, whatever your schedule allows in the two weeks before the retreat and similarly after the retreat, see if you can allow a little bit more time in your sketching, will you? Still, most people still have to go back to their worldly responsibilities, their work, their schedules. But if you can allow a little bit of more time for meditation, then when you emerge from the retreat, you'll be able to bring the insights from the retreat back into your life and have more of an integrated experience upon emerging. So we just want to allow a sort of a a gentle kind of gliding into the retreat, warm up a little bit for it, go really deep during the retreat when we're protected by the silence, and then when we emerge, still allow times in our day that are supported by silence, that are punctuated by silence, so that we just give ourselves time to let the experience, the new perspective of the retreat, meet the ordinary activities of our lives. And tremendous wisdom comes that way, both in terms of the the preparations we start start to recognize the activities that we do that are actually corrupting our own minds and not actually leading to the deep happiness we yearn for. And then we might get a taste of deep joy and pleasure that comes when the mind is concentrated and undistracted, when the mind is very serene and at peace. And we can enjoy that, no problem. And then when we come back into life, we can't keep longing to stay in a concentrated state where we were secluded from everything we have to meet. Life. But we can just allow a little bit of quiet to increase our capacity to meet life with that wisdom. Mm.

Sol Hanna

16:13

Well said, well said. That's good advice. Now let's get into the retreat itself. What? This is a pretty broad question, I have to admit. What can people expect from when they're on a meditation retreat? I mean, we could talk about, like, what's in a daily schedule or what might they expect when they're on a retreat?

Shaila Catherine

16:35

Up. 8s Can I back up? I had, as you were asking your question, my mind went back to some other things that were really important for the preparation. Another thing people can do to prepare would be to. Protect the silence of the retreat by actually. Taking care of whatever communications are absolutely necessary before the retreat. Sometimes people think these days, oh, well, I'll just bring my cell phone along and I'll finish this, this work or this conversation by text and. Oh, that's quiet. It's silent. Right. I'll just be texting somebody. But actually, it's keeping the mind. It would keep the mind engaged. And in the, in the, in the world of the, the social activities. So it's preventing us from actually having the deep experience of the retreat. Usually we have to prepare to let go of our communications. We have to actually give the emergency number to the people who we trust and explain to them what an emergency consists of, and then we have to tell the other people who will have who will are not likely to have emergencies, but might be used to reaching out to us that they have to contact that person that has the emergency number. And there are gatekeepers. So everybody has to have their own gatekeeper outside of the retreat, so that if something really is important, you know, to me that's, um, you know, life and death, life and death, it's really as simple as that. Illness is such a strong illness or injury that somebody I love is hospitalized and they need my help. You know, there's something I could do to help. So. So I specify what kinds of things somebody would contact me for. And then I give them a route to contact me. And every retreat center usually publishes their emergency contact number. And so there's always a way to reach somebody. But when once somebody is reached, once somebody in a retreat is communicate with the outside. Very often their concentration crumbles. And it's it's difficult to regain the momentum. They get very distracted because these worlds collide and it happens sometimes. So that's fine. But what's the problem that that we have more and more as people bring their devices into retreats and, you know, have access to their own hotspots, is that they never let go of their devices. And I think that's a big part of the retreat, just to go on a retreat and go fully on the retreat, set up your gatekeeper so that you really feel confident turning off your devices and not looking at them until the end of the retreat. And if somebody doesn't have a gatekeeper, then they don't feel confident and they keep they don't actually step outside of their their worldly responsibilities of keeping up their role and keeping up all of the the same things that one does at home. We have to give ourselves the space to not do those things in a responsible way. And the responsible thing is to have that gatekeeper for the emergency contact. There's another part of this, that of of understanding the retreat as being a layperson's form of renunciation. We're not leaving our, you know, our worldly lives forever and going off into a monastery or. But we are making these temporary renunciation, and that's very important to do. We have to be willing to let go to, to step away from to. I think renunciation is a very beautiful word, to be able to renounce the habits of daily life, the expectations of daily life, the comforts of daily life, the sense of identity that comes with the way that we do things in our daily lives. We have to step outside of that, renounce that, and when we go on to retreat, we give ourselves the chance to actually let go of that for the days of the retreat. And then we come back, and that's a really important part of, of practice for a lay person, so that we can, from time to time experience that depth of of calmness and peace. And from deep meditation on retreats, we can, from time to time step outside of the preoccupations with, you know, gain and loss and success and failure and all of the worldly conditions. But then we come back and we deal with the things that we need to deal with those late people. We take care of, the things that we're responsible to take care of. And then, you know, maybe, maybe we do a few retreats a year. So we have these little times to take off. It's more than a vacation. People might say, well, it just sounds like a holiday, you know, why not go to, you know, some island that has, you know, sit under a coconut tree and sip your, your coconut water through a straw. And wouldn't that be just as relaxing? But it's different that the renunciation and the stepping away is much more than a holiday. It has a kind of rejuvenation that goes very deep.

Sol Hanna

22:54

Let's talk about what goes on in a meditation retreat. What can people expect on a on average day and during a meditation retreat?

Shaila Catherine

23:03

Well, from the time one wakes up until the time one goes to sleep, the basically people are asked to be mindful, to be aware, to let thoughts of past and future fall away, and to actually practice meeting this present moment continuously throughout the whole day. For most of the retreats that I work that I'm involved in, there's a schedule that starts, you know, wake up, whatever the wake up time would be. Some are very early, some are later, like like 6:00. Some start at 430, some start at 4:00, some started at 630. You know, whatever the wake up time is and some don't even have a wake up time. And they just leave it up to the individual to set their own alarm. And it doesn't really matter. The point is not what time somebody wakes up. The point is, is that from the moment that one is conscious in the morning, that one establishes mindfulness, one is very present, and then one continues to cultivate mindfulness through every activity. Brushing your teeth, showering, dressing. Then one goes to the meditation hall because the the, the only structured activities are basically sitting with meditation and then walking meditation. Some meals and a little work period, and then a dharma talk, a little teaching. And once in a while you meet with the teacher to discuss your practice, either in a group or individually. But that's about all there is. So the schedule might look like wake up sitting, meditation, walk, walking, meditation, breakfast, a work period, sitting meditation with a guided meditation or instructions from the teacher, then walking, sitting again, maybe a question and answer period or another sitting before lunch. Then there's lunch. A little breaks. People like to rest or do exercise. Or maybe there's another work period for some people to clean up after lunch. And then maybe 2:00 there's another sitting period, and then a walking and a sitting and walking. And then maybe there's a meeting with the teacher in the afternoon, and then a sitting and a walking and then a dinner. Sometimes some retreats follow a monastic custom where there's food is not really eaten after dinner. So if you if somebody was to attend a retreat led by monastics, they might not get any dinner. But if they're if it's a retreat led by laypeople, there's a really good chance they'll be dinner. And the instruct the information about their retreat will tell them what's going on there. So maybe there's a dinner and then another meditation, an evening dharma talk, a walking period, another meditation, and then bedtime. And then people go off to bed and then they wake up and it's the same thing. So it's basically alternating sitting and walking, sitting and walking, sitting and walking, punctuated by meal times and a little tiny bit of volunteer work to help the cooking and to help the cleaning of the retreat center. All done in silence. All in silence with the exception of the questions, with the questions and answers for the teacher. So what, though you might be, you know, cleaning carrots or peeling carrots with somebody, you're not talking with them. So you're not you're not going through the social interactions that tend to, you know, that tend to bring up all our personal identities and patterns and attachments and reactions and judgments and views. We're just peeling carrots, mindful of peeling carrots. And then we go back to do the next sitting meditation. And some retreats will have shorter sittings, like 35 minutes, 30 minutes. Some retreats will have longer sittings an hour and a half, two hours. Most will be somewhere in the middle, 45 minutes to an hour. But again, it depends upon the teacher. So and the same with the walking periods. Some teachers give a lot of emphasis to walking meditation and it's more or less equal time. Sitting, meditation, walking, meditation and other teachers will give more emphasis to the sitting meditation and the walking will be slightly fewer or slightly shorter. And it just depends upon who the teacher is. But the essence, the point of it is, is that one is practicing. From the time one wakes up in the morning until the time one goes to bed, and that our activities are simplified, really simplified. We're just doing the basics that have to be done. We're sitting, we're walking, we're dressing and showering and, you know, eating and cleaning up. And then the same thing because what we're interested in is looking at how the mind meets experience in a moment of contact. We're cultivating mindfulness of of of of, you know, this this experience of the present moment. So we're not trying to to contemplate and reflect on past things or anticipate future things. We're mostly just being mindful. And then one might periodically undertake a specific practice, like one might go to a particular retreat that was focused on maybe cultivating loving kindness and compassion. So then they would they might not give as much emphasis to being mindful in a moment of contact. They might give more emphasis to cultivating the practices of love and kindness and compassion practices. Somebody might go on a retreat that was oriented towards concentration and samadhi, using the breath as the primary object, perhaps, and then one would focus primarily on the breath, but similarly it wouldn't be wildly different. It would still be very, very simple. Just the activities that are absolutely necessary and everything from the time you wake up until in the morning until the time you go to bed is is intended to be every moment used for that mindful exploration of the meditation practice. So we don't sit there, you know, kick back, you know, sipping our coconut, fantasizing about something else. No, we're mindful right then and there, whether we're drinking or he or walking on a path.

Sol Hanna

29:49

Hmm. I think a lot of people might hope or imagine that a meditation retreat involves lots of calm or blessing out, and whilst that can definitely happen, come about as a result of going on a retreat, it can also happen that we get stuck for a while and a negative frame of mind. What are some of the obstacles that can come up in the course of a meditation retreat, and how might we deal with those?

Shaila Catherine

30:15

Yeah, one of the great things about retreats is we have to deal with our obstacles. True. And if we are at home, something comes up, we get irritated, or we experience some some desire. Well, people too often don't deal with their own obstacles. They just satisfy their desires and get angry at whatever they're annoyed with. They express their defilements and their and and act on their hindrances. So if there's restlessness and agitation, people might just get more restless. If there's thoughts, they might let the mind wander. So in daily activities, people don't really take care of their minds so much unless they're already well established with their meditation practice. On retreat, if you don't take care of your mind, you're going to feel it. It's going to sting. You're going to see the you're going to experience the pain of anger, and you're not, and you're going to be in silence. So you're not going to be just venting. You have to see what the mind is doing, and that's a good thing. You're you're in a in a safe environment, a retreats, an extremely, you know, a basically a safe place to be. So any problems that are happening are problems because of what's happening in your own mind. And when we know that, we then are motivated to actually see what our mind is doing. If we're if we get upset because we didn't get something that we wanted, we can start to see how attached we are. To what we want, how attached we might be to our views about how things should be to our comforts, to our preferences. We can see desire operating in the mind instead of just trying to get what we want. Now, of course, in daily life, there's nothing wrong with you know, if you have to make a choice, why not make the choice for the thing that you like rather than the thing that you don't want? Okay, that's fine, but in retreat, it's a different thing. In retreat, we're there to learn about our own minds, and we're there to purify our minds, to abandon the forces that keep us distressed. So we want to let go. We want to see desire operating, see a version operating if they arise in order to let them go, if the mind goes into dullness or restlessness, if it goes into confusion and speculation, if it gets attached to views and opinions, or builds up a strong sense of arrogance and conceit, we want to see that and when you're sitting in silence with no TV to turn on, no internet to scroll, nothing to do but to look at your mind, you will see its patterns, and then you'll be able to learn how to work with them. And this is a big part of meditation. We don't just sit down and bliss out in the depths of concentration, the depth, the bliss comes when we have done the work to let go of the hindrances. And the reward we get that is is phenomenal. The joy, the pleasure that comes from an undistracted mind is so superior to any kind of pleasure that can come from any sensory experience. And people get a taste of that after they've done the work. So there does need to be enough confidence that people will come into the retreat, committed to do the work, committed to see what their minds are, what their habits are, and let go of the desires, the aversions, the restlessness, the doubt, the conceit, the arrogance, the all those, the envy, the jealousy, all of those forces that really keep. If they're not abandoned, they just keep the mind caught up in distractions. Mm. So yes, there is bliss. There is bliss. But you kind of have to earn it. Well,

Sol Hanna

34:16

I think you hit upon a really important point just now, because I think a lot of us, when we go on a meditation retreat where in a very subtle way, which is not always easy to see, we're driven by that sense of ego. It's like, I'm going to attain something, I'm going to get something. And that can sometimes be an obstacle. And you've just hit upon a point where you've said. To get to the to calm the blissful state of mind. It's about letting go. It's not about attaining because it's like letting go. If you let go of those wants and those things that you dislike and like. And once all that goes away, the mind calms down. Is that if I said that correctly, or did you want to add anything to that?

Shaila Catherine

34:58

Oh, I think you've said it very well. It's all about training the mind to let go. So, so many times in life, in our in the past, people train themselves to hold on, to find security through grasping. And it doesn't work. You know, trying to get more pleasant experiences and avoid the unpleasant and thinking that lasting happiness can come through that. And it doesn't. It can't. So we we learned to let go. We practice letting go, and we start to train the minds to actually trust the experience of letting go. And when we are when we are in retreat, it's a perfect opportunity to practice letting go because for the most part. There's nothing that we should be doing. You know, there's really not that much to accomplish. We're sitting there breathing and feeling the experience. And keeping it simple. The problem is, as most people don't keep it simple, they turn it into a story of personal accomplishment. They turn it into a story of personal anguish, of a cathartic, emotional experience that's going to be this or that, and they turn it into a story. But the simpler we allow our experience to be, the greater wisdom we gain about how this encounter with life actually works. What happens in the mind in a moment of contact? Not a story about what we're going to. What great spiritual experience we're going to have. Or maybe, maybe we, like, long for some spiritual experience of emptiness. Well, and then we start thinking about what it's going to be like, can we create this whole fantasy of it? And we imagine ourselves telling other people about it? Well, that's just a story. It's nothing but what happens in a moment of such profound letting go that we're no longer distorting the experience with the with the conceiving of of my story and who I am. And we have a genuine experience of, of of experience being empty of self. I've really the pure encounter with this moment of life body, mind, feelings, just as they are utterly changing. Nothing. Nothing solidified into my concepts, my views, my opinions. Just the dynamic flow of experience as it is empty of self, empty of attachment. The mind has to be letting go at that. Non clinging is occurring when we have that clarity of seeing the nature of experience. Oh.

Sol Hanna

37:56

Well said. Look, there might be some people who think that they can take themselves on a meditation retreat by themselves, even though they may have not been on a retreat before. Why do you think it's important, at least in the beginning, to go on retreat with a teacher?

Shaila Catherine

38:17

Yeah, I do think I do recommend that if people want to go on retreat that they go to a group retreat, a retreat that's guided by a skilled and reputable teacher. And I. I would recommend mindfulness being the base some kind of insight meditation or mindfulness. Those are good basic practices. Sati Patna practices, good basic trustworthy practices. And that's as a place to start these days. There's so many teachings available through online. Online sources that people think they can just, you know, collect a bunch of recordings and then go off to a cabin in the woods and, you know, listen to their guided meditation in the morning and their a dharma talk in the evening and sort of put together their own retreat. But I have not seen that that is terribly fruitful. It can be delightful, but it falls much more in the realm of a holiday in my mind, where people still will be reaching for their comforts, still attached to their patterns, doing things exactly the way they want to do them. That? Where's the renunciation? Where's the letting go? People also don't see their own patterns, so if they don't interact with the teacher periodically, they're very likely going to just keep not only doing things the way they want to externally with their actions, like the way they want to have their food, the way they want to have their their sleeping arrangements, the way they want to have their exercise or their walking. But the way that the mind works, they're going to still follow the same patterns that build up a sense of self and attached to this and that. They're going to very likely still be following the same patterns of attachment. And teachers can point out places where we cling that we don't see, we just don't see them ourselves. And putting ourselves into a retreat environment also itself points out that places where we are attached to how we think things should be. That we may not even realized before. So although although solitary retreats can be very pleasant, I do think of them as spiritual ish vacations for most people. Most people. It's not to say that there isn't a a rare person who really has really can use them, but those are the people who can use them. Usually are very skilled already, which means they've already trained either in monastic life or trained through many, many, many retreats.

Sol Hanna

41:26

Right, right right right. Look, I'm coming up to my last question now, and it relates to what to do after going on meditation retreat. In our conversation prior to this interview, you mentioned to me about the importance of deep practice. What do you mean by deep practice and how can we keep the momentum going with our practice after going on a meditation retreat?

Shaila Catherine

41:51

Well. To me. Deep practice involves deepening our concentration for sure to really settle so the mind is not distracted. If the mind's not concentrated. We might get a certain degree of insight into. Our restlessness and our personal stories, but most of our insights will probably be in the ways we're habitually distracted. A concentrated mind will be able to see more deeply than the habits that just just the mere personal habits of mind. So people can have a lot of personal insights in daily practice and also in retreat. Insights into why I did that, why I said that, what kind of person I am, what happens to me and how I'm healing from it. They can have we can understand the dynamics of our the way our emotions interact with our thoughts and how the various, you know. The things we take to be important, how they play out and affect us. So there's a lot to be learned about ourselves, and that's an important part of practice. But that's not liberating in sight. That will make us a better person. It'll make us a more functional, a wiser. In many ways it's it's it's wonderful. But it's but meditation goes much further than the personal to me. Deep practice develops the level of concentration that allows one to see beyond the personal. And to have insights into the the universal characteristics of experience, the utter impermanence and emptiness of things, to have deep, penetrative insight into the the the deep patterns, not just the personal preferences, but the deep patterns that perpetuate attachment and cause suffering and those that lead to liberation and freedom. And so those insights, they they need to be supported by concentration. The concentration needs to be supported by the silence and the seclusion of retreat. So the stepping out of our daily lives is almost like one step already on the path to Nibbana. And then letting the mind get concentrated to take us deeper, having insights that go beyond the personal stories and see just the the way perception functions, the way we encounter experience takes us yet deeper, and the letting go continues. It continues until we can have such profound insight and letting go that we really do free the mind from the causes of suffering. We really can realize Nibbana. We really can let go of these of of underlying tendencies towards defilements. And we really can't do a tremendous amount to purify the mind of habits that obstruct. So I feel like a deep retreat is one that gets beyond our personal stories, and that needs some, some degree of concentration. And then the skills of insight to keep the, the, the, the momentum of our investigation going so that we can really see, see very deeply what what's beyond the story of me, what's beyond our personal preferences, that little slice of, of the of, of our identity through which we view the world. That can no doubt blind us sometimes. There's a and there's but there's there's much more to be known about the body and mind that I think can really only be known in silence. Yeah, that's a really, really deep point because especially today, you know, we live in a noisy world, but also internally we can be so noisy. I think the point you made earlier about, you know, don't take your mobile or your device on retreat or if you do switch it off because that's a form of noise and busyness internally as well. So we really do need that. Would you say we really need that dedication to the higher goal of of the Buddhist path, you know, to Nibbana

Sol Hanna

46:41

that with that gives us that impetus to go on the retreat, but also we come off the retreat and we're still from day to day trying to find the peace within ourselves, but also to see clearly what's going on inside the mind.

Shaila Catherine

46:58

You know, I think that dedication is really important, but it's something that is developed over time. It continues to mature and deep. And for most people, what brings somebody to their first retreat may not be what brings them to their third retreat or their 30th retreat. Sometimes people come to retreats. Like I said initially, perhaps out of curiosity or because their doctor sent them, maybe they just want to relax a little bit and de-stress. Well that's great, that's great. That's no problem. If that's the motivation, they should still go on the retreat, relax a little, de-stress. But when they've accomplished that, they will probably sense that there's a lot more potential there, and they might then come back for the next retreat with a different motivation, motivated to understand a little more about their own minds. And then they'll go through a phase where they might really be working with the emotional life, with the personal insights. Great. No problem. But after that settles a little bit, they gain some understanding about that or interspersed with it. There may be times when they see a potential to also see. Beyond that, the Buddha taught a path that was that's liberating, that ends the causes of suffering, that uproots greed, hate, and delusion. It's not that you sign up for a retreat and they promise that you're going to end greed, hate, and delusion for all time. I wish it were that simple, but if we whatever brings us in, whatever inspires us, we work with that. But we can sense that there's that. The path goes further, and then we we continue to develop it. We continue to go deeper. We continue to explore. Personally, I'm very motivated. With the thought of completely uprooting greed, hate and delusion. It doesn't matter to me if that happens today, tomorrow, the next day, the next lifetime, who knows? It's not for me to judge when fruit when it matures. You know, it's like fruits. They ripen. But. And you don't force that to happen. It ripens when the conditions are there. But I can, and I am feeling very dedicated to cultivating the conditions that would lead to the ending of greed, hate and delusion. And I feel that that's not only important and as and worthwhile as a dedication within my life, but I can't help but think it would be good in the world. And the more people that are committed to something beyond personal gain, beyond material gains, beyond their own personal story, the better the greater peace there will be in the world. So there's dedication for awakening, but it's not a personal awakening. A person is never awakened. That's a leading to letting go, a freedom. But we do. We're not going to be free unless there's a desire to be free. We have to be dedicated to liberation. We have to want to be free, even if we don't quite know what that means. We censor what that will be like, we'll sense little experiences along the way where letting go has opened the mind to a profound sense of peace or joy. And it's something that we trust and that encourages us to let go a little more, a little more, a little bit more, a little bit more. And so we see and we gain a sense of trust in the path. It strengthens art. The dedication you spoke of, because we see the little improvements along the way and we allow it to continue to develop.

Sol Hanna

50:58

That's a really inspiring place in which to end our interview. Thank you, Shayla, for joining us on Treasure Man podcast today and wish you all the very best for your path and for all your students as well. Thank you very much.

Shaila Catherine

51:12

Thank you.

Sol Hanna

51:14

Thank you to the listener also for joining us for this episode of Treasure Mountain, in which we had Buddhist author and meditation teacher Shayla Catherine talk about the benefits and approaches of silent meditation retreats. Please note that there are links in the show notes below to Shayla's books and upcoming retreats. And if you like what you've heard in this episode, you should check out those links. If you enjoyed this podcast, I'd appreciate if you could share this episode with your friends or other people who you think could benefit from it. Sage advice. Treasure man Podcast is part of the Everyday Dharma Network. You can find out more about the Treasure Man podcast by going to Everyday Dharma Dot net. There you can find out about previous episodes and guests as well as transcriptions are very devoted. You'll also find out about that other podcast on the Everyday Dharma Network. If you've benefited from this podcast or any of the Everyday Dharma podcasts, you can support this work through making a donation. I'm making all of these resources available free of charge, but making them comes with a cost. I'd really appreciate it if you could offer a gift of a few dollars to keep the podcast going. I hope you'll join us again for our next episode of Treasure Bound Podcast, as we seek for the treasure within.